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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2242
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Posted - 2015.06.21 09:50:07 -
[1] - Quote
Missiles need more than just these changes while they are a welcome addition to the meta.
Missiles need to be fully effective against bare hulls of the appropriate class. (100% application of HM vs unfitted unboosted cruiser for example)
Missiles need to be fast enough to easily catch a MWD propelled ship of the appropriate class.
These are basic requirements that would be the design brief for anyone making a missile for shooting at cruisers for example. If it barely is faster than a cruiser under MWD, it's effective range vs that cruiser in anything except a head to head situation is massively reduced. I.E. Overtake velocity is important.
If the explosion velocity is lower than the bare hulls speed (no prop mod) then the missile won't be effective vs cruisers.
If the explosion radius is larger than cruisers, it also won't be effective.
So start from scratch on missile stats with those basic common sense design elements in mind, implants boosts & fittings will then be what mitigates damage, and these new modules, tp's & webs will then be what counteracts the implants, boosts & fittings. Damage may need reworking or it may not, but you have to start from a common sense position or you'll never get a good balance. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2244
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Posted - 2015.06.23 02:04:47 -
[2] - Quote
Terra Chrall wrote:
I agree, but also keep in mind missiles are one of the few weapons that a ship, with speed, can increase the effective range my moving away from the missile ship and really fast ships can outrun the weapon all together.
To put it in a better way. True missile range is determined by overtake velocity.
Take a ship going at 2000m/s away from you.
Now consider a missile at 2,000, 2,100 & 2,200. Flight time 10 seconds.
The effective range at which you can shoot at the ship with the first missile is 0. Because it will never catch the ship.
The second missile has an effective range of 1000m
The third missile has an effective range of 2000m
This is despite the technical range on all three being 20-22km.
Obviously if they aren't flying directly away from you this means your missiles can try and cut the corner to some extent, but lacking true brains they aim straight at where the target is now to do so rather than future predict meaning unless they are coming head on into you, the last part is almost always a true stern chase.
Hence why in this era of ships going faster again (though not as crazy as nano age I know), missiles are really suffering because the real effective range is dropping dramatically. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2276
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Posted - 2015.07.18 07:51:45 -
[3] - Quote
The problem is not in the modules or the rigs or the stacking penalties. All these things are fine.
The problem is in the base weapon stats. When 40% of your damage against the same class ship is mitigated BEFORE boosts/prop mods/boosters there is a significant problem.
Change that figure to be 100% with standard missiles against the appropriate sized class, then you have a better match up and you aren't employing all your rigs simply to get any application at all. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2277
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Posted - 2015.07.18 22:15:39 -
[4] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
If you don't see how 100% application wouldn't be OP I don't know how to help you.
There's a lot to consider here and while the 40% mitigation is too much you can't give them 100% application either.
100% BEFORE all fittings, boosts & boosters on the correct size target is not hilarious. It is exactly what guns have. With piloting and neither of you using any fittings you can keep 100% DPS application with guns.
Now add in prop mods, boosts, implants, boosters and everything that changes sig size and speed.....
And you no longer have 100% application in real situations, but you have started from a sensible place and no longer need to pile 6 mods onto your ship in order to create application.
Sure you will nail a webbed scrammed TP'ed ship...... But you will do that with guns also. So it's pretty irrelevant using that case. Shooting the kitting ships will still be seriously low application as will shooting unwebbed/unscrammed frigates.
Sure, paper DPS might also end up needing a downwards tweak, but if applied DPS actually goes up, who gives a damn about paper DPS changes when currently paper DPS is a myth anyway. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2279
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Posted - 2015.07.19 06:59:46 -
[5] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:I will clarify my previous comment. I see ZERO issue with equal class perfect application. A battleship vs a battleship should be applying its full strike or at the very least within the same damage band of comparable weapon systems.
You are not vocally advertising this. You are advertising perfect application in general. A cruise missile that blaps frigates is not a good thing and never will be. Or do you want a single phoenix to be able to wreck subcap gangs pretty much effortlessly?
Does application need a serious look? Oh hell yes. That's why many of us are baffled by the nerfs to application.
Uh no, that is not what I was saying at all. Go back and read, I very specifically was saying 'same class before any fittings, boosts, implants or boosters'. I am talking about BS vs BS or Cruiser vs Cruiser.
Cruiser vs Cruiser is one of the worst with Heavy missiles down as low as 60% application vs certain unfitted cruisers.
Light missiles/Rockets are fairly good in this regard already so not much would need to change there.
As for 'application issues cause thinking about fitting'. I am talking about UNFITTED HULLS. Caps since you seem to be missing it every time. As soon as they fit a prop mod of any sort, command boosts, implants, or boosters which affect sig, suddenly you no longer have perfect application, meaning you STILL have to think about your fit.
You are just no longer forced into a bunch of application mods just to do any damage at all to a target. Look at your standard gun fit, it doesn't come with 6 application modules. Neither should missiles have to. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2279
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 23:25:35 -
[6] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Missiles apply their damage regardless of range, turrets do not and may/will require ammo swapping (costing time and thus dps) to even TRY doing damage at all ranges. You can't just point at one stat and go "see, that's worse!"
Range on missiles is dictated by overtake velocity. Not just paper range. Guns their range is exactly what you see. And missiles have a range with no fall off at all.
So..... Come back with a better argument than the one that missiles range is somehow better than guns.
As soon as you introduce the target ships velocity into the equation missile range can be decreased dramatically simply by flying away from the shooting ship. Or even orbiting around it decreases the effective range. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2286
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Posted - 2015.07.21 03:12:23 -
[7] - Quote
The application bonus is theoretically useful in a gang/fleet situation where you have a dedicated TP boat.
Since you fitting TP's runs into stacking issues while your personal MGC's don't have stacking issues with the TP from the dedicated boat.
However the problem is that the MGC is being used as a band-aid for poor base application, without extra slots being given to fit it. Meaning that sure you can up your application in a gang/fleet situation, but only at the cost of tank or DPS. Which doesn't solve the issue of missiles being inferior overall.
They just need the application raised so firing inside class (Normal HM's at Cruisers, Rage at BC's) does 100% at a bare unfitted hull. And have a velocity sufficient to sensibly catch a normal MWD'ing cruiser running away with at least 50% real range. Then the weapon systems can actually be balanced after that application change properly.
Actual range of a missile = overtake velocity * flight time
If your missile goes 2k for 10s and the target goes 2k, it has 0 real range.
If your missile goes 2k for 10s and the target goes 1.9k it has a massive 1km real range
If your missile goes 2k for 10s and the target goes 1k it has a 10km real range.
So actual missile range is not as obvious as it appears.
---- |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2288
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Posted - 2015.07.21 05:36:01 -
[8] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I almost get the feeling that CCP is gonna pop out and say
"HA!!! We told you these wouldn't work!!!"
Except we all told CCP they wouldn't work on their own without a proper rebalance of base missile stats anyway. So..... yea? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2299
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Posted - 2015.07.22 22:59:13 -
[9] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:
show me fury torps? if you mean rage then yes that is there trade off (more dmg for reduced range and larger velocity and expolsion radius) . This holds true for heavy assault rage missiles
Random T1 BS. 485 Sig, 115 Velocity.
NORMAL Torp. Explosion Radius 450, Explosion Velocity 71m/s.
Rage. Explosion Radius 750, Velocity 61m/s.
Do you really think that's balanced that a NORMAL torpedo doesn't have the explosion velocity to apply to an UNFITTED Battleship. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2299
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Posted - 2015.07.22 23:24:56 -
[10] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:
please use skills as no one states the range of there guns or missiles without skill (rage torps are 7.5km and 9km for normal)
rage torps 91.5 exp vel and 580.5 exp rad
normal t1 torps 106.5 exp vel and 337.5 exp rad
battle ships range between 350 (might be 400 for the lowest?) and above for sig unfit.
And if you want to use skills, please use them for the standard velocity also....
Which still leaves Torpedoes just as unable to apply damage because of explosion velocity. And Torpedoes are in a much better place than Heavy Missiles & HAM's.
Standard Heavy. 140 Radius 81 Velocity
Standard HAM. 125 Radius 101 Velocity
Random T1 cruiser. 100 Radius, 250 Velocity!
These are standard missiles trying to apply damage to a ship of their own size. |
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